xkyairax
Child Of God
I'm through accepting limits cause someone says they're so
Posts: 19
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Post by xkyairax on Aug 16, 2010 13:36:24 GMT -5
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Post by Jayda on Aug 16, 2010 17:57:37 GMT -5
I definitely don't agree with the death sentence for homosexuality. I have several gay family members and friends and that is completely and utterly barbaric. The death penalty should only be used in circumstances where the person being judged has given a good reason to be put to death (aka murdering, terrorism, etc). Homosexuality is not a sin. It's acting upon homosexuality that is the sin.
Prop 8... I, myself, get confused with whether or not I'm totally against gay marriage. As I said above, I know several gay people and I love them to death and I am no where near the kind of person that can or should judge another. I'm fine with civil unions. Don't force anything on the churches... Other than that... I really have no idea where I stand. My religious views, versus what I want to believe politically clash.
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Post by shadow on Aug 16, 2010 18:16:53 GMT -5
Religion always wins in my opinion. Idc who your are Gospel truth over rules everything.
I disagree with the over ruling and I disagree with killing someone because theyre Gay. In fact i hate the death sentence period... there was another topic about that and my reasons are in there.
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Post by hockeydude on Aug 17, 2010 1:47:59 GMT -5
Jayda pretty much stole the words out of my mouth on the Prep 8 issue. While I agree with the church that marriage is between a man and a woman, I think we should respect the freedom of living in a free country and allow civil union. Basically, I think that even if I believe something strongly, that doesn't give me the power to enforce that on anyone else. That's where people get to use their agency.
Whether you like it or not I have a strong feeling that the entire United States will allow gay marriage in a number of years. Unfortunately, morals and religion don't stand a chance against "logic" in politics.
As far as Uganda...that's terrible and disagree with it 100%, but look where it is. It's by Rwanda, Somalia, Kenya. The governments in that area have always been corrupt, so while it's terrible, all I can really say is what else is new.
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Post by Jayda on Aug 17, 2010 10:32:58 GMT -5
Jayda pretty much stole the words out of my mouth on the Prep 8 issue. While I agree with the church that marriage is between a man and a woman, I think we should respect the freedom of living in a free country and allow civil union. Basically, I think that even if I believe something strongly, that doesn't give me the power to enforce that on anyone else. That's where people get to use their agency. Whether you like it or not I have a strong feeling that the entire United States will allow gay marriage in a number of years. Unfortunately, morals and religion don't stand a chance against "logic" in politics. As far as Uganda...that's terrible and disagree with it 100%, but look where it is. It's by Rwanda, Somalia, Kenya. The governments in that area have always been corrupt, so while it's terrible, all I can really say is what else is new. I totally agree.
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Post by shadow on Aug 17, 2010 16:00:16 GMT -5
I dont agree with that. No where does it state that marrage is a civil right, therefore its perfectly acceptable to place limits on it. The same thing was done against the church to ban pologamy. The funny thing is that no where in the bible does i say you cant have mulitple wives, only to not commit sexual sin. Sexual sin involves any sexual activity outside of marrage. Ok now onto the debate about weither or not being gay is natural. I have seen no evidence that says it is. Even if you look at it from outside of religion it doesnt make sense. It goes against the basic human survival trait of perserving the human race. It would not occur naturally because you cant have kids, and it does not occur naturally in anyother organism. Infact every single gay person i know, boy or girl, has had some sort of tramatic experence of some sort. The girls either had an abusive father or boyfriend. Where as the guys were picked on and called Gay ever since they were in the 3rd grade, in fact most Gay guys are in something releated to the Arts. Being in Drama as a male, for example, is similer to painting a big target on your chest, its not a matter of "if" youll be made fun of but "when", because its viewed as "unmanly" other males, and possibly females as well, will call you Gay. Yes i know that this is immature but it happens and if you have this going on throughout your preteen and teenage years you will begin to think that its true. Its a psychological disorder caused by a tramatic event. Your mind is still developing and you are still learning as a kid. Whenever something bad happens your mind connects it to something in that event, (abusive father=men are bad) you can see it in other events as well. For example, someone who almost drowned as a little kid is usually scared of water. It simply doesnt happen naturally. Now onto the view of it from a Mormon stand point. This explanation is much shorter. It mocks the divine family unit. Thats the reason sexual sin is second only to murder and blasphamy of the Holy Ghost. Everything in the Gospel revolves around the Family unit, we call each other brother and sister because we are spiritual siblings. We came to earth so we could gain a Body, become like our Heavnly Father, and have our own spiritual Children. You cannot have Children without someone of the opposite Gender. It is physically impossible. (I would go into more detail but there are certain people on here who dont need to know details *cough andrew cough* ) But it simply mocks the family unit, but this is only an issue if you have a testimony though. So it doesnt stand up against people who dont care like athiests. Wow the longest post ive ever put lol
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Post by Jayda on Aug 17, 2010 16:07:57 GMT -5
I have to disagree with the first portion of your post. I do agree that sometimes, yes, it is caused by a traumatic event, or by people saying such things to you. Some people definitely DO choose that path. But I'd say all of the people I know that are gay, or experience gay feelings have never had such a traumatic experience. Trust me, I know them well enough to know that. Most of them are family. God made them that way for a reason. It's their test in life. I'm not at all saying that I agree with the lifestyle. But a lot of homosexuals cannot control the fact that they have those tendencies/feelings.
And yes, in our religious stand point living this homosexual lifestyle is indeed a sin. It does mock the family unit. But we cannot control anyone. That's the point of having free agency. They choose what they choose. We choose what we choose. Simple as that. I don't think that Eric or I were saying that we agree with, or like the homosexual lifestyle. We were merely saying that we're fine with civil unions (marriages/legal bondings within a court room) as long as no one forces gay marriage on the churches. I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle. But it's one of those things - love the sinner, hate the sin.
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Post by shadow on Aug 22, 2010 15:31:07 GMT -5
I simply said i havent seen any evidence and that everyone here in my town that claims to be gay has had some sort of past experence that i listed to make them think theyre gay. Im no expert so i could very well be wrong. I put those last two paragraphs down so you can know what my stand point is.
I understood what you ment, what i ment is that marrage isnt a constitutional right and therefore can be limited under the court system. They cannot over rule prop 8 underclaims that it limits the rights of others, which is what theyre planning on doing.
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Post by Andrew the Penguin on Aug 24, 2010 12:06:32 GMT -5
Hmm. I'm just trying not to post on these kinds of threads.
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Post by shadow on Aug 29, 2010 14:52:28 GMT -5
well ive posted my opinion lol. no one will kill you andrew
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Post by Jayda on Aug 31, 2010 15:00:59 GMT -5
I simply said i havent seen any evidence and that everyone here in my town that claims to be gay has had some sort of past experence that i listed to make them think theyre gay. Im no expert so i could very well be wrong. I put those last two paragraphs down so you can know what my stand point is. I understood what you ment, what i ment is that marrage isnt a constitutional right and therefore can be limited under the court system. They cannot over rule prop 8 underclaims that it limits the rights of others, which is what theyre planning on doing. I just saw this post! Wow, really? That's strange. I'd be interested in doing some research to see the statistics of how many homosexuals have experienced such events to cause them to become homosexual... However, regardless of how they became that way, they ARE that way and most of them cannot change. Whether or not they can change those tendencies or wants, they can control how they act upon those feelings. And you're correct... That's not necessarily what I was talking about though
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Post by shadow on Sept 1, 2010 8:36:09 GMT -5
yeah lol
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Post by Andrew the Penguin on Jan 30, 2011 17:59:09 GMT -5
Hehe. Guess I just can't resist to post here. Jayda, I heard somewhere that homosexuality is a sin, so I looked it up on lds.org. lds.org/ensign/1995/10/same-gender-attraction?lang=engA particularly interesting exerpt I found was this: "Applying the First Presidency’s distinction to the question of same-sex relationships, we should distinguish between (1) homosexual (or lesbian) “thoughts and feelings” (which should be resisted and redirected), and (2) “homosexual behavior” (which is a serious sin)." So although it does not specifically say that option 1 is a sin, it DOES say that it should be resisted and redirected, which is often considered for a minor sin. ...I gotta go. I'll finish this later.
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Post by Remove on Jan 30, 2011 18:15:37 GMT -5
Being gay isn't a sin. Acting on it is. It's that simple.
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Post by jamiecatslc on Jan 30, 2011 19:22:29 GMT -5
I agree with lizzy.... i don't think it's wrong to be gay because you can't help it. you just need to have self control about it. just like sex isn't wrong but sex before marriage is
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Post by Jayda on Jan 31, 2011 11:55:06 GMT -5
Hehe. Guess I just can't resist to post here. Jayda, I heard somewhere that homosexuality is a sin, so I looked it up on lds.org. lds.org/ensign/1995/10/same-gender-attraction?lang=engA particularly interesting exerpt I found was this: "Applying the First Presidency’s distinction to the question of same-sex relationships, we should distinguish between (1) homosexual (or lesbian) “thoughts and feelings” (which should be resisted and redirected), and (2) “homosexual behavior” (which is a serious sin)." So although it does not specifically say that option 1 is a sin, it DOES say that it should be resisted and redirected, which is often considered for a minor sin. ...I gotta go. I'll finish this later. What that quote means is that the thoughts and feelings (which cannot be controlled) must be redirected and resisted, which we've already established. Homosexual BEHAVIOR (acting upon those feelings) is the sin. Not the feelings. You cannot control how you feel. It's almost impossible. It's the act that makes it the sin. Just like if I were to act on my heterosexual feelings by letting my mind wander where it shouldn't, or doing something sexual with a man, it would be a sin if a homosexual were to do the same. But I am attracted to men and I cannot control that. They are attracted to the same gender, and they cannot control that. In fact, I'll be blunt and honest - there are some women that I find EXTREMELY attractive. I mean, they're hot! Does that mean it's a sin that I'm attracted to them? No. If I were to for some reason act upon that attraction THEN it would be a sin. I wouldn't because I'm heterosexual, but the point is that unless I act upon my feelings, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual, it is not a sin. It cannot be a sin. It would be unfair (and God is a just and fair God) for God to give these people these feelings and then send them to this life with no way to overcome or fight with that trial because just feeling that way is a sin. Every person in my family, including myself, has at one point questioned their sexuality. I don't know if that's "normal" and I don't share that often, but my point is that even the best people can question their feelings, and can even have feelings that I suppose they "shouldn't" but that they cannot control. Like anger, for instance. We shouldn't feel or have anger, but it is nearly impossible to overcome it. It's not the same thing, considering homosexuals always feel for the same gender, but my point is that feelings are nearly impossible to control and/or overcome. I'm so positive that a majority of homosexuals are born with these tendencies. A very, very close friend of mine knew from the time they was 3 because they had a crush on their best friend of the same gender. What 3 year old has a crush on their same gender unless they were born that way? And remember, they were born into a strong LDS family that wasn't very close to any homosexuals. I do think that certain people choose to feel that way, and yes, all active homosexuals choose to LIVE that way, but most of them do not choose to feel that way. It is not a sin if they cannot control it. It'd be like saying having depression is a sin - it's not, because you cannot control it. You can do things to help it, like taking medication, but you cannot control it. See where I'm coming from? Watch this video. It's an official response from the church on homosexuality after conference last year: It helps explain how the church feels about homosexuality. I especially like how he pointed out that we, as members of the Church, should be sure that our attitudes and actions towards others dealing with ANY sort of problem reflect Christ's second great commandment - to love one another.
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Post by shadow on Feb 7, 2011 21:50:36 GMT -5
Oh I'm friends with a few gay people, but I can't buy that God made people that way. After all, don't all good things come from God and all evil from Satan? Most likely your friend was just really really good friends with their "crush" and had the love between close friends confused with romantic love.
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Post by Remove on Feb 7, 2011 22:08:50 GMT -5
I'm friends with a few gay people to-They are so easy to get along with. ever noticed?
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Post by Jayda on Feb 7, 2011 22:29:53 GMT -5
Oh I'm friends with a few gay people, but I can't buy that God made people that way. After all, don't all good things come from God and all evil from Satan? Most likely your friend was just really really good friends with their "crush" and had the love between close friends confused with romantic love. Okay, then let's say that God doesn't make them that way. Then satan makes them that way, right? Why would God make it a sin just to feel that way if they cannot control it, regardless of how they got those tendencies/feelings? Why would it so unfairly be a sin to FEEL a certain way when you cannot control it? God is not unfair. Either He would make it impossible for satan to be able to put that burden on someone, or He would not have it a sin to just feel that way. That would be entirely unfair if just being that way was a sin, and we all know from the scriptures that God is a just and fair God. As far as my friend goes, I don't believe that they mistook friendly love with romantic love. That person is still a homosexual to this day (after 15 years) and has fought against those urges all their life. They date members of the opposite gender and they only ever have, they are active in church, they live the Gospel, and still they have those tendencies and feelings. They cannot just shut them off. It is impossible. This person has known since they were 4 and it hasn't changed, no matter how completely righteous they've lived their life. My uncle was the same way. He lived the Gospel so well and served a mission and tried his hardest and the feelings didn't go away. Sadly, he gave in and is now actively living a homosexual lifestyle. HE is sinning. Not my friend.
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Post by Evil Seeker on Feb 9, 2011 22:26:31 GMT -5
is being a warlock is a sin?
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Post by Andrew the Penguin on Feb 13, 2011 11:17:42 GMT -5
Ah. I understand. Thank you for clearing up my interpretation of that quote, Jayda. I agree with Shadow. I just doesn't make sense that "God makes them that way." He doesn't want us to sin. I don't really know how homosexuality might have gotten started, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with Temptation. >_>
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Post by Jayda on Feb 13, 2011 22:02:54 GMT -5
As I stated above, even if God doesn't "make them that way" then satan would be the one to do that, and if God allows satan to do that then it would be entirely unfair for God to make just feeling a certin way a sin. And God is a just and a fair God.
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Post by Andrew the Penguin on Feb 16, 2011 20:20:07 GMT -5
God is a just and a fair God. I like this.
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Post by shadow on Feb 18, 2011 15:36:03 GMT -5
As I stated above, even if God doesn't "make them that way" then satan would be the one to do that, and if God allows satan to do that then it would be entirely unfair for God to make just feeling a certin way a sin. And God is a just and a fair God. Well Satan cant make you do anything unless you choose to let him, similar to an addiction. But either way, even if God created them that way your thoughts lead to actions. Try telling someone with a sexual addiction that its ok to have thoughts, just dont act upon the feelings, eventually theyll give in, its impossible that they dont. Homosexuality is the same way, its a sin, and like all sins, it can be overcome, even to the point that you have no desire to do it again. So there should be no reason for a gospel loving person to not get rid of those feelings. And even if there are people who are able to have those thoughts and not act on them, the will power required to do that would have to be even greater than just giving it up entirely.
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Post by Jayda on Feb 18, 2011 18:39:29 GMT -5
I don't have the time right now, but I will respond to your post (:
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Post by Jayda on Feb 18, 2011 19:21:42 GMT -5
Well Satan cant make you do anything unless you choose to let him, similar to an addiction. But either way, even if God created them that way your thoughts lead to actions. Try telling someone with a sexual addiction that its ok to have thoughts, just dont act upon the feelings, eventually theyll give in, its impossible that they dont. Homosexuality is the same way, its a sin, and like all sins, it can be overcome, even to the point that you have no desire to do it again. So there should be no reason for a gospel loving person to not get rid of those feelings. And even if there are people who are able to have those thoughts and not act on them, the will power required to do that would have to be even greater than just giving it up entirely. Nevermind, I have some time now. True, satan can't make you do anything. An interesting thing, though, that I recently learned is that satan has no power to tempt children until the age of accountability, so my friend couldn't have been tempted by satan at the age of four when they had a crush on their best friend. Just throwing that out there, because I didn't know that until recently. And yes, thoughts lead to action. I know that from experience. But, you must realize that thoughts and feelings cannot always be controlled. I can't always control what thoughts pop into my head, or what I feel. It's a matter of resisting and redirecting those thoughts and feelings and trying to live the Gospel. Just as the First Presidency stated: "Applying the First Presidency’s distinction to the question of same-sex relationships, we should distinguish between (1) homosexual (or lesbian) “thoughts and feelings” (which should be resisted and redirected), and (2) “homosexual behavior” (which is a serious sin)." Thoughts, in any sexual way for that matter, whether they be heterosexual or homosexual, are a sin if entertained. But the natural man is an extremely difficult thing to overcome. It can take an entire lifetime. I won't say it's impossible because with God anything is possible, but it's an EXTREMELY difficult task. It all depends on a person's spiritual growth and when they get to that point where they can put that natural man aside. I imagine that the First President and Quorum of the Twelve have reached that point where they put the natural man aside. But to all mortal, human, finite beings it is a struggle that often times lasts an entire lifetime, if it is even a struggle that they are able to overcome in this lifetime. It'd be like asking YOU to overcome whatever struggles you may have right now. It's not easy, and it's not impossible, and it can take a long time. It's not impossible, but it would be very hard for you to all of the sudden overcome your struggles and trials, whatever they may be. Why does God allow people to struggle with homosexuality for differing amounts/periods of time, instead of just taking it away when they ask for it to be taken away? Who knows. Each person has their own individual struggles that they must try to overcome, no matter how faltering their attempts to overcome them, and each person will be required for any amount of reasons to struggle with those things over any amount of time as God sees fit. Yes, I'm sure it is possible for homosexual feelings to be "overcome" in a sense. But I have to wonder even if a homosexual person were to find someone of the opposite gender to live out their lives with, and if that person resists those feelings, if they never feel a draw to the same gender ever again. I have no idea. If you have any evidence as to the answer of that I'd love to see it. But everyone has to struggle with things for a reason. God allows people to struggle because they must, for whatever reason. But bunching all homosexuals together and saying (as it seemed you did, I don't know if you meant to bunch them all together) that they can all overcome their homosexuality is like saying that all alcoholics can overcome their addiction to alcohol. It may be possible, but it does not mean that it'll happen in this lifetime. What matters is that they try, and continue to try, and endure to the end. What endure to the end means is that no matter the trials and temptations you are given, for however long - whether it be a moment or a lifetime - you stick to living the Gospel and endure to the end and live in righteousness. It does not mean that you must overcome everything by the time you die. It means that you must try and try and try again, no matter how many times you falter. I don't know why God allows people to be tempted this way, or if He makes them that way, or what. I have no idea. I don't know why God lets it happen, or does it, or whatever the case may be. We all have no clue. But we could ask the same about a person with genetically prone alcoholism, or schizophrenia, or someone who is born a psychopath - they cannot control what they were born with. All they can control is what they do with that. I think that's it... I feel like I had more to say, but I don't remember what it was
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Post by Andrew the Penguin on Feb 18, 2011 21:23:56 GMT -5
That was a very large, serious, and interesting post. It's effect was dampaned by seeing "THE GAME" at the end. XD
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Post by Jayda on Feb 18, 2011 23:24:30 GMT -5
Hahahahahahaha! You crack me up
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Post by Andrew the Penguin on Feb 20, 2011 0:35:17 GMT -5
Hmm. I just saw Gnomeo and Juliet. < I'm sorry. (That's a sad face, not a sad gnome.)
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Post by shadow on Feb 23, 2011 22:19:46 GMT -5
Well Satan cant make you do anything unless you choose to let him, similar to an addiction. But either way, even if God created them that way your thoughts lead to actions. Try telling someone with a sexual addiction that its ok to have thoughts, just dont act upon the feelings, eventually theyll give in, its impossible that they dont. Homosexuality is the same way, its a sin, and like all sins, it can be overcome, even to the point that you have no desire to do it again. So there should be no reason for a gospel loving person to not get rid of those feelings. And even if there are people who are able to have those thoughts and not act on them, the will power required to do that would have to be even greater than just giving it up entirely. Nevermind, I have some time now. True, satan can't make you do anything. An interesting thing, though, that I recently learned is that satan has no power to tempt children until the age of accountability, so my friend couldn't have been tempted by satan at the age of four when they had a crush on their best friend. Just throwing that out there, because I didn't know that until recently. And yes, thoughts lead to action. I know that from experience. But, you must realize that thoughts and feelings cannot always be controlled. I can't always control what thoughts pop into my head, or what I feel. It's a matter of resisting and redirecting those thoughts and feelings and trying to live the Gospel. Just as the First Presidency stated: "Applying the First Presidency’s distinction to the question of same-sex relationships, we should distinguish between (1) homosexual (or lesbian) “thoughts and feelings” (which should be resisted and redirected), and (2) “homosexual behavior” (which is a serious sin)." Thoughts, in any sexual way for that matter, whether they be heterosexual or homosexual, are a sin if entertained. But the natural man is an extremely difficult thing to overcome. It can take an entire lifetime. I won't say it's impossible because with God anything is possible, but it's an EXTREMELY difficult task. It all depends on a person's spiritual growth and when they get to that point where they can put that natural man aside. I imagine that the First President and Quorum of the Twelve have reached that point where they put the natural man aside. But to all mortal, human, finite beings it is a struggle that often times lasts an entire lifetime, if it is even a struggle that they are able to overcome in this lifetime. It'd be like asking YOU to overcome whatever struggles you may have right now. It's not easy, and it's not impossible, and it can take a long time. It's not impossible, but it would be very hard for you to all of the sudden overcome your struggles and trials, whatever they may be. Why does God allow people to struggle with homosexuality for differing amounts/periods of time, instead of just taking it away when they ask for it to be taken away? Who knows. Each person has their own individual struggles that they must try to overcome, no matter how faltering their attempts to overcome them, and each person will be required for any amount of reasons to struggle with those things over any amount of time as God sees fit. Yes, I'm sure it is possible for homosexual feelings to be "overcome" in a sense. But I have to wonder even if a homosexual person were to find someone of the opposite gender to live out their lives with, and if that person resists those feelings, if they never feel a draw to the same gender ever again. I have no idea. If you have any evidence as to the answer of that I'd love to see it. But everyone has to struggle with things for a reason. God allows people to struggle because they must, for whatever reason. But bunching all homosexuals together and saying (as it seemed you did, I don't know if you meant to bunch them all together) that they can all overcome their homosexuality is like saying that all alcoholics can overcome their addiction to alcohol. It may be possible, but it does not mean that it'll happen in this lifetime. What matters is that they try, and continue to try, and endure to the end. What endure to the end means is that no matter the trials and temptations you are given, for however long - whether it be a moment or a lifetime - you stick to living the Gospel and endure to the end and live in righteousness. It does not mean that you must overcome everything by the time you die. It means that you must try and try and try again, no matter how many times you falter. I don't know why God allows people to be tempted this way, or if He makes them that way, or what. I have no idea. I don't know why God lets it happen, or does it, or whatever the case may be. We all have no clue. But we could ask the same about a person with genetically prone alcoholism, or schizophrenia, or someone who is born a psychopath - they cannot control what they were born with. All they can control is what they do with that. I think that's it... I feel like I had more to say, but I don't remember what it was In order I never said Satan tempted her, I said she was confused. You're basically agreeing with my general opinion. But exactly where in the scriptures does it say do your best? I've never seen that, in fact all I've ever seen is God telling us to DO not TRY. And yes it'll take time, but you just have to control your thoughts. If something related to that, or any sin, pops in your head do something to distract yourself from those thoughts. Eventually you quit thinking about it, it's very much similar to the mind set of "the game"
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